APRIL 2010 ^_^
What is Individual Christianism? According to Karl Keating's Book, "Catholicism and Fundamentalism" , an Individual Christianity believer is one who does not believe on the power of religions, but believes that there is a Supreme Being. He believes that Jesus died on the cross, and brought forth our Salvation. I once had a conversation with an Individual Christian. I did not expected that I'll have a chance to speak with a "No Religion" believer, it was just because a friend of mine asked for my help, because He did not know what to reply to this Individual Christian.
"FUCK THE CHURCH. FUCK THE CHURCH." - a comment by (lets hide him in the name Evon) Evon as my friend posted something about the Catholic Church.
I had to approach Him, for He did not only disrespected my friend's post, but also what my friend believed in... what i believed in, too..
[CONVERSATION]
Here's my friend's post (Facebook)
"We have to continue our spiritual battle against those who wants total annihilation of the Church; so just as this military command, I say: "Forward, MARCH!"
Evon's comments
1) "FUCK THE CHURCH. FUCK THE CHURCH."
2) the church is just a tool to fool the masses, to give them a false sense of hope and is just used to keep people's values in retrospect. fuck the church. What only matters is our covenant with God. Our belief in Him, our worship and praise for him. We do not need the church for that. If you do your research, everything they do in the so-called 'christian mass' is linked to pagan ceremonies. So I say fuck the church. And fuck the leaders of the church who profits from our donations.
My friend's reply:
That's nonsense! Our faith in Him cannot stand alone!
Just so you know, what you have called a false sense of hope is wrong. Why?
1. Faith is a personal act...but is not an isolated act (cf. Catechism of the Catholic Church). It does not mean that you believe in God, it would be your passport to His Kingdom. It does not stand alone because you cannot be saved, or at least commended, by a mere process of thought. Thus it needs action--a physical manifestation of this belief; in this case, good works. ...
2. On what you said (...who profits from our donations), they profit not because they would keep it in their pockets. Almost all religious leaders, from the Pontiff to the parish priest, are happy with donations, not because they would spend it in luxury--which is contradictory to their vow of poverty--but because they will go to those who need it the most: i.e. parochial clerics financially helping the seminarians they sponsor.
3. In a personal light, is asking the help of a person enough to get yourself out of a sticky situation? I don't think so. You would always do your best, with his/her assistance, to resolve it. That's why the Church exists: it helps and serves those who want to help themselves out of the sinful lives they live, so that through their faith AND COMPLIMENTARY ACTIONS, they would renew their covenant with God.
Evon's reply:
You don't understand.
1. If you say that belief in God alone is not enough to be saved, that is just plain wrong. God himself told us that in order to be saved, we must believe in His son, Jesus Christ and accept Him as our savior. God did not tell us to believe in the church. He did not mention anything about the church and believing in it. Yes, you may say that Jesus Christ is the one who told His disciple to build a church as our covenant to Him, to spread the faith or whatsoever. But do you think we need a church? All this time, in the name of christianity, there has been a lot of inquisitions and killings by the church just for the name of God. And yet you say that our good works will be justified by believing and being a part of the church itself.
2. From my belief and from what I've seen personally and what I've known. Look at all the religious leaders, they're rich and they have a very lavish lifestyle. They profit from our donations, every single cent of it. Do you even think that they skip a meal with all the money they have? Do you even think that when they go to some places, they won't choose to be in a grande or a luxurious place with a first class treatment or not a first class treatment but I know you get what I mean. They spend on so many unnessecary things with the mony they get from us. Seminarians and sponsors? that makes me laugh because with how much they get form donations, why can't they even help the poor, the needy, to feed them and clothe them, and house them. Every single time they've got enough money to do so....
3. I've got nothing against with what you said on this one. Every one has his or her own way to get through what they need to get through. That's all. But by what you said about the church and what it exists for. I think it's all just a sham, you're describing it just like a support group. Like AA.
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At this time, my friend talked to me and asked for my help. So I commented on my friend's post too..
I said:
Hello, i dont mind to disturb your conversation, but it seems like your topic is very interesting.
Brother, i respect what you believe. Actually i have alot of friends like you.. The term used to describe what you believe is "Individual Christianity" - to ONLY believe that there is a Supreme Being, but no need to have religions (Karl Keating)
Before I continue,
Do you believe in the Bible?
i'll wait for your response. God bless!
Evon's Reply:
I don't mind sister Celine. Yes, Individual Christianity. But I have a very complex belief. Sometimes I believe, sometimes I don't, and sometimes I am against the belief.
I do believe in the bible, but the bible contradicts itself..
God bless you too Celine.
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Since the discussion was very public, and everybody could see it, I had to "Add Him Up" as my friend so we can have a conversation privately.
[Legend: the capital letter "I" corresponds to Me :) and the capital letter "E" corresponds to Evon]
I: i saw your comment on my friend's post. do you mind if i ask questions?
E: Hi Celine. Yes its okay.
I: first i would like to know if youre a former catholic or any other religious groups
E: I am baptized as a christian but a few years ago i renounced my faith.
I: Catholic?
E: yes catholic.
I: okay. and you're family?
E: yes, they are catholic.
I: when did you became an Individual Christian? were there someone who influenced you, or preached you, or taught you to become one?
E: Im not that pure as an individual christian.
As early as grade 6, I became an atheist. And in the first two years of my high school life. I got interested on Satanism. No one influenced me, its simply because of my curiousity.
I: ah i see. Do you believe in God, right now?
E: Sometimes, especially when I'm down. But sometimes I think 'about the facts'. And my faith seems to fade..
But I do believe in a supreme being. Not as an entity itself, or a persona. But a force to make people do good and be good. The goodness in life and in everything in general.
I: okay.. so what made you say "fuck the church"? and what church are you talking about? (as if i dont know. lol)
E: The catholic church. In the church, there's a lot of hypocrasy. As in full of hypocrasy at immorality.
I: what do you mean hypocrasy? and how can you say that? do you have proof or an experience for you to say that?
E: Yes, look at the pedophile priests. Look at all the churches who killed lots of people in the name of God in the inquisitions. They are so judgemental yet they are the one who are devouted to God so much... Churches who shove their beliefs in peoples throat, who preach. Who dare say bad things to nonbelievers, who do bad things to the nonbelievers, but when people attack them even with heathens, they then say its wrong to attack them back. Although they did the bad thing in the first place. They're using the church as a scapegoat. And that's why i think they are hypocrites. And in my belief. The church isn't perfect, I know you will agree with me. God and Jesus Christ is perfect, so what we should do is set our eyes and our hearts to them.
A lot of teachings of the church is, i think, absurd. A whole lot of absurdity, thats why I don't follow the church.
I: about your response, i cant agree with you more. yes some catholic priests are pedophiles brother.. but i think thats not a reason to hate the catholic church..i'll give you an example. im a student. im a student that is very idle. i act bad on school, and im not interested in listening to my teachers or instructors. does this mean that the blame is to be put on the School? No, right?
Ephesians 2:7-9 :
in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. [For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.] (focus on the [])
* In here says that in faith we will be saved.
Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins is the one who will die. [The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.] (focus on the [])
* it is very clear on this verse that the only the sinner gets punish. the son or family or relative will not share on the sinner's punishment.
about the teaching of the Church that you think is absurd, would you kindly list it down for me? lets discuss it one by one brother.
E: About your example, the blame is to be put on the student. And i agree.
about the verse you've given,
Ephesians 2:7-9 :
in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. [For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.]
i very much agree on you sister. our faith in Jesus is the only way we will be saved, not on the church. Yes, we do worship God inside the church, but since you said faith is the only way to be saved, why do we need a church? is it hard to worship with no church?
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On the second verse, once again, i agree.
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First of all:
Christians claim to worship God as an omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent being, they make him out to be incompetent bumbler. Or worse. Simple forgiveness is beyond his capacities. God must ["sacrifice himself to himself to change a rule he made himself!"]
This is not only an absurdity, it is an essential absurdity. It is present in almost all forms of Christianity, and one can scarcely remove it and remain a Christian in anything but name. By definition, all Christians worship Christ - in some form - and most worship him as a saviour.
But what, exactly, is he saving us from? Though it varies from church to church, no matter what they call it, it's God himself. A hell created by God, a world fallen as a result of God's negligence, a separation from God imposed... by God.
BACK TO THE LIST OF WHY I THINK IT'S ABSURD:
1. There are thousands of different religions in the world, and in the vast majority of cases people follow the dominant faith of the culture they were born into. Is it not arrogant and self-centred to think that your faith is the "true" one and all the others are false?
2. What is the point of prayer? Surely God knows what you are going to pray for beforehand - and has already decided on his course of action. Is it not absurd to think that you can persuade God to change his mind?
3. Why does God insist that you worship him? Is he insecure - or an egomaniac?
4. Thomas Paine: "Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon that the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and for my own part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel."
Please explain why the bible is referred to as the "good book".
Thomas Paine was referring to the old testament in the above quote. Please explain why the god of the old testament (an angry, vengeful god, worthy of scorn not worship) - is so different from the god talked about in the new testament.
and the last one:
Jesus apparently died for us, facing god's wrath in our place. Why did he have to do this? Why couldn't god forgive us anyway? Why does god - a perfect being - have negative, human-based emotions like anger and wrath? Is not the whole concept absurd?
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I have nothing against God. I don't hate God and I don't hate the belief. In fact, sometimes I believe. This is what I just come up with when I think about the absurdities.
Hope to hear more from you kapatid.
:) have a good day.
I: okay since you agree on my example and on the verses i have given you, i guess now its not a reason for you to hate the Catholic Church and same with the Catholic Priests.
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* THIS IS WHAT YOU SAID BROTHER: i very much agree on you sister. our faith in Jesus is the only way we will be saved, not on the church. Yes, we do worship God inside the church, but since you said faith is the only way to be saved, why do we need a church? is it hard to worship with no church?
and my response: the question is, is it faith alone that we need in able to be saved?
Matthew 7:19-27 Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them. ["Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, 10 but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?' Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.' "Everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock.] The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. But it did not collapse; it had been set solidly on rock. [And everyone who listens to these words of mine but does not act on them will be like a fool who built his house on sand. The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. And it collapsed and was completely ruined."] (focus on the [])
as you can see brother,not all who says Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. God also said, "Everyone who listens to these words of mine and ACTS ON THEM will be like a wise man who built his house on rock. The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. But it did not collapse"
God also stated on that verse, "And everyone who listens to these words of mine but does not act on them will be like a fool who built his house on sand. The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. And it collapsed and was completely ruined." in other words, your faith is useless if you wont ACT on them.. "its completely ruined"..
THIS IS WHAT YOU SAID BROTHER: our faith in Jesus is the only way we will be saved, not on the church. Yes, we do worship God inside the church, but since you said faith is the only way to be saved, why do we need a church? is it hard to worship with no church?
*
so why do we worship on a Church? with the help of the Bible, we will see the answer.
1 Timothy 3:15 (New American Standard Bible)
but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will [know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.] (focus sa mga nakabracket)
so God created the Church as His house, and so it'll be pillar and support of truth.. so if there were no church, where could we find truth? how? on your faith? but God said not all who says Lord Lord can enter the kingdom of heaven.
THIS IS WHAT YOU SAID: Christians claim to worship God as an omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent being, they make him out to be incompetent bumbler. Or worse. Simple forgiveness is beyond his capacities. God must ["sacrifice himself to himself to change a rule he made himself!"]
* brother, God did not sacrifice Himself. He sacrificed His only son Jesus for us to be saved and NOT to change a rule He made Himself. does this mean you are questioning God?
this is what you said: This is not only an absurdity, it is an essential absurdity. It is present in almost all forms of Christianity, and one can scarcely remove it and remain a Christian in anything but name. By definition, all Christians worship Christ - in some form - and most worship him as a saviour.
* how can you say that this is absurdity? we worship God for it is our way to say "thank you for dying and suffering for us to be saved"... you worship God right? in a way of faith right? are you calling yourself an absurd believer?
this is what you said: But what, exactly, is he saving us from? Though it varies from church to church, no matter what they call it, it's God himself. A hell created by God, a world fallen as a result of God's negligence, a separation from God imposed... by God
* Meaning to say, God is saving his self from his self? No brother. In the book of Genesis, there were EVIL in the beginning. and this is what God is saving us from. The first sin was made by Eve and Adam when they disobyed God, and this is because of the snake w/c is Satan. So God is saving us from the Devil brother.. This is why God created hell, because nowadays, many are following Satan.
2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but [sent them to hell], putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;
God's negligence? No. you cannot blame that to God. the blame is to be put on the people who did not believe on Him. Negligence?? Dont you appreciate what God did? sacrificing his only Son to people who does not deserve to be saved?
**okay now lets go to the reasons why you think the teachings of the church is absurd**
1) There are thousands of different religions in the world, and in the vast majority of cases people follow the dominant faith of the culture they were born into. Is it not arrogant and self-centred to think that your faith is the "true" one and all the others are false?
* yes there are thousands of religions in the world, but the first ever CHRISTIAN RELIGION is the Catholic Church brother.. they were the first to preach christianity into the world. And I think it is not arrogant and selfcentered to say that "my church is true and the others are not" specially when a catholic is the one saying that. remember, they were the first to preach christianity into the world. and after that many false religions appeared.
Matthew 7:15
[ A Tree and Its Fruit ] "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
Matthew 24:11
and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
1 John 4:1
[ Test the Spirits ] Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2. What is the point of prayer? Surely God knows what you are going to pray for beforehand - and has already decided on his course of action. Is it not absurd to think that you can persuade God to change his mind?
* brother, prayer is not only for asking for something.
prayer is a form of ACTS. as in (A)doration (C)onfession (T)hanksgiving and (S)upplication..
the people in the bible prays:
1 Kings 8:28
Yet give attention to your servant's prayer and his plea for mercy, O LORD my God. Hear the cry and the prayer that your servant is praying in your presence this day.
how can you say that God knows what you are suffering from? yes, God knows what happened, is happening, and will happen to you, for the eyes of the Lord is in every place (proverbs 3:15)but God will not do anything brother for God said in the book of Psalms (i forgot the verse) that you are the one who makes your ACT and I only guide it.. so how can He decide and guide you if you do not pray?
2 Chronicles 30:27
The priests and the Levites stood to bless the people, and [God heard them, for their prayer reached heaven,] his holy dwelling place.
3. Why does God insist that you worship him? Is he insecure - or an egomaniac
* why are you questioning God like this brother? Dont you believe in him? Brother, to worship him is the simplest way to thank Him for saving us, you brother, can you sacrifice someone you love for the people who does not deserve to be saved? no right? so you cannot ask God like that..
4. Thomas Paine: "Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon that the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and for my own part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel."
Please explain why the bible is referred to as the "good book".
* how can you say that God is really the demon if in the beginning of the world there is Evil? the devil that tempted Eve and Adam to sin.. The Bible is reffered as the good book because these are the Words of God..
this is what you said: Thomas Paine was referring to the old testament in the above quote. Please explain why the god of the old testament (an angry, vengeful god, worthy of scorn not worship) - is so different from the god talked about in the new testament
** where? where in the Bible?
this is what you sai: Jesus apparently died for us, facing god's wrath in our place. Why did he have to do this? Why couldn't god forgive us anyway? Why does god - a perfect being - have negative, human-based emotions like anger and wrath? Is not the whole concept absurd?
* God forgave us brother. He did this in a way of sacrificing His son. Im not sure about this one. Try researching. ^_^
this is what you said: This is what I just come up with when I think about the absurdities.
*now think about the answers i gave you.. :) it can help you alot.
God bless.
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This has been the end of our conversation. I havent heard about him anymore. For now im still waiting for his reply. Im posting this TO ANSWER questions and not for any other reasons. There are typing errors on this blogpost. My apologies. Hope this helps a lot. God bless.
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